This log is automatically generated by an IRC bot from the traffic on the #topicmaps IRC channel on the irc.freenode.net IRC server. This file has the traffic for 2006-05-04. If you have questions regarding this log, please contact larsga@ontopia.net.
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| 09:00:22 | lheuer | Hi there! :) |
| 09:00:42 | drrho | ah hallo der Herr! |
| 09:01:02 | lheuer | Guten (Morgen|Abend)! :) |
| 09:01:19 | drrho | * drrho just about to wrap up TMQL. |
| 09:01:29 | drrho | uhm, I'm kidding, of course :-) |
| 09:01:54 | lheuer | :) |
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| 10:52:52 | drrho | lheuer: I have now the problem in AsTMa= to defined a topic which reifies the map in which it is declared. |
| 10:53:25 | drrho | Never needed it before :-0 and I do not want to have a 'directive' for that. No hack. |
| 10:53:28 | lheuer | We have the %topicmap directive you don't like |
| 10:53:32 | lheuer | Ah :) |
| 10:53:43 | drrho | What about: |
| 10:54:10 | drrho | mymap ~ http://astma.topicmaps...../2.0/self |
| 10:54:32 | lheuer | I thought about something like this-topic reifies $this |
| 10:54:45 | lheuer | Where $this points to the tm instance |
| 10:55:03 | drrho | Yes. |
| 10:55:06 | lheuer | Our proposals look very similiar ;) |
| 10:55:28 | drrho | But we would have to change the grammar to allow variables there. And these variables are actually on... |
| 10:55:34 | drrho | ... a different semantic level. |
| 10:55:41 | drrho | A URI would be a URI. |
| 10:56:00 | drrho | What I do not understand yet: |
| 10:56:11 | lheuer | Hmm... But ~ stands for a subject identifier, right? |
| 10:56:14 | drrho | would such a topic reify the document. |
| 10:56:28 | drrho | yes - or would it reify the thing, described by the document. |
| 10:56:36 | lheuer | But for reification we don't need subject identifiers any more (acc to TMDM) |
| 10:57:07 | drrho | Why? |
| 10:57:14 | drrho | * drrho has not read latest TMDM yet. |
| 10:57:40 | lheuer | Because of the "reifier" attribute / property that is attached to the tm constructs != Topic |
| 10:58:12 | lheuer | It was changed 6 months ago, I think |
| 10:58:50 | larsbot | correct |
| 10:58:55 | drrho | * drrho thinking |
| 10:59:37 | drrho | But don't we still want to identify things directly (they are the subject behind a URI) and indirect ... |
| 10:59:53 | drrho | ..(they are just indirectly identified by a URI). |
| 10:59:56 | drrho | ? |
| 11:00:34 | drrho | The reification stuff in TMDM is only for things inside the map. |
| 11:00:45 | lheuer | Not sure if I understood the question :) My thoughts behind the $this was... |
| 11:02:06 | lheuer | acc. to TMDM the TM instance has no base URI any more, so the parser takes the URI of the document or a URI that is provided by the user (see XTM draft). And $this points to that URI automatically |
| 11:02:40 | larsbot | drrho: reification is also for the map itself |
| 11:02:55 | drrho | lheuer: that's what I was thinking, yes, BUT: |
| 11:03:03 | drrho | if I do a |
| 11:03:16 | drrho | mybeautifulmap reifies $this |
| 11:03:39 | drrho | is the topic mybeautifulmap now about the DOCUMENT where the map text is stored, or |
| 11:03:51 | drrho | .. the more abstract thing 'this particular map'. |
| 11:03:58 | lheuer | The latter |
| 11:04:04 | drrho | One and the same map might be stored in 4 different documents. |
| 11:04:26 | drrho | OK, how do I distinguish then? |
| 11:05:23 | drrho | I had thought, it is quite simple. Again, in AsTMa: |
| 11:05:38 | drrho | mybeatifulmap = http://.../self |
| 11:05:51 | drrho | here the topic is about the very document where this is in |
| 11:06:05 | drrho | mybeautifulmap ~ http://..../self |
| 11:06:22 | drrho | here the topic is about the abstract map, indirectly identified by the document. |
| 11:06:24 | drrho | No? |
| 11:06:59 | lheuer | To "reifiy" the document I'd use a plain subject locator. |
| 11:07:06 | lheuer | http://..../mymap.atm |
| 11:07:13 | lheuer | tn: This is my map |
| 11:07:31 | lheuer | It is not reification in TMDM sense |
| 11:07:36 | drrho | OK, but in the AsTMa= map you do not know where it is actually stored the moment you consume it. |
| 11:07:47 | drrho | No, that is NOT TMDM reification. |
| 11:08:16 | drrho | (that's why I was confused by your 'reifier' property comment before) |
| 11:09:22 | lheuer | I am lost. :) You want to introduce another reification procedure that is not related to TMDM? |
| 11:09:37 | drrho | larsbot: If I say in LTM |
| 11:09:41 | drrho | #TOPICMAP ~topicmap |
| 11:10:01 | drrho | is this about the current document or the map itself? |
| 11:10:19 | larsbot | the map |
| 11:10:26 | drrho | The example in http://www.ontopia.net/download/ltm.html#sect-topicmap-directive is about publication, so... |
| 11:10:33 | larsbot | [tmfile = "Topic map file" %""] would be about the file |
| 11:11:03 | larsbot | the abstract TM and the file are published the same day... |
| 11:11:36 | drrho | Ah, but in principle the dates may be different, yes. |
| 11:12:02 | drrho | * drrho tries to understand the %"" syntax. |
| 11:12:15 | lheuer | Subject locator notation |
| 11:12:34 | drrho | Have it, yes. |
| 11:13:08 | drrho | [mytm = "rho's map" @""] |
| 11:13:26 | drrho | would that do the same as the #TOPICMAP directive? |
| 11:13:27 | larsbot | that creates a topic with the TM file as the subject identifier |
| 11:13:36 | larsbot | it doesn't get turned into reification |
| 11:13:40 | larsbot | but you could argue that it should |
| 11:14:37 | drrho | I think I understand that now much better :-) |
| 11:15:08 | drrho | So in AsTMa= we would have exactly the same mechanisms, then: |
| 11:15:23 | drrho | mymap = http://self # this is the document |
| 11:15:36 | drrho | mymap ~ http://self # this is the map indicated. |
| 11:15:37 | drrho | cool. |
| 11:16:35 | lheuer | Jep. But it might look a bit strange for users. Because it has a different meaning than |
| 11:16:47 | lheuer | mytopic = http://something/ |
| 11:16:59 | lheuer | mytopic ~http://something/ |
| 11:17:17 | lheuer | But it looks similiar |
| 11:17:33 | lheuer | I am not sure if this is good |
| 11:17:47 | drrho | But would not the only difference be that the http://self URI is predefined as saying "this is the document we are in"? |
| 11:18:06 | drrho | Or is there more difference? |
| 11:18:58 | lheuer | http://self is the "placeholder"? |
| 11:19:32 | drrho | Yes, something predefined like http://psi.topicmaps.org/astma/2.0 |
| 11:20:33 | drrho | Hardcoded into the parser: if URI = 'psi.....self' then URI := currentLocation() |
| 11:20:38 | lheuer | Jep. I am not very happy with it but I can live with it |
| 11:21:14 | lheuer | I think for users the %topicmap directive is more obvious |
| 11:21:14 | drrho | I'll make a note that we should consider adding it. |
| 11:21:56 | lheuer | We can use the predefined astma: namespace, right? mytopicmap =astma:self |
| 11:22:06 | lheuer | mytopicmap ~astma:self |
| 11:22:14 | drrho | Ah, nice. |
| 11:27:12 | lheuer | BTW: Did we drop the i' prefix for subject identifiers? |
| 11:27:41 | drrho | Hmmm, not yet. |
| 11:27:55 | drrho | Although: I really like this StevePepper syntax :-) |
| 11:29:40 | lheuer | Why I am asking: Gabriel prepares a syntax shoot out for Korea ;) I am using the i' prefix in my solutions but if we'll drop it anyway, I'll use = |
| 11:30:06 | lheuer | Do you use i' in TMQL? |
| 11:30:42 | drrho | No, I tried to use consistently ~ and =. |
| 11:32:56 | lheuer | I wonder if we need the = for subject identifiers. Most of the time topics are bound to subject identifiers and not to subject locators. Why should we force users to type the = for such a common task? The user should type an extra char if it IS NOT a subject identifier |
| 11:33:47 | lheuer | That would break backwards comp. to AsTMa= 1.3 because a plain URI is a subject locator in 1.3 |
| 11:34:20 | drrho | I think Pepper used ~ for subject indication (i.e. identifier) and = for subject locator. |
| 11:34:43 | drrho | And I think, youre right, one of them should be default. = ??? |
| 11:34:57 | drrho | So your example |
| 11:35:08 | drrho | http://whereever.com/document.doc |
| 11:35:20 | drrho | would create a topic with a subject locator. |
| 11:35:43 | lheuer | In AsTMa= 1.3: Yes. |
| 11:36:01 | lheuer | But it should create a topic with a subject *identifier* |
| 11:36:12 | lheuer | in a better AsTMa= version ;) |
| 11:36:21 | drrho | :-) |
| 11:37:58 | drrho | Maybe. So you say a declaration |
| 11:38:07 | drrho | http://whereever/doc.doc |
| 11:38:14 | drrho | tn: this is a topic |
| 11:38:38 | drrho | is using the URI as _identifier_, i.e. subject indication. ? |
| 11:38:45 | lheuer | Yes |
| 11:39:03 | lheuer | This would be a huge backwards comp. break. Now a AsTMa= 2.0 parser might understand AsTMa= 1.3. But if we change it, a AsTMa= 2.0 parser would create a different model if it parses a 1.3 doc |
| 11:39:11 | drrho | And you say, this is because it so much more frequent. |
| 11:39:23 | drrho | Exactly. |
| 11:39:43 | lheuer | Acc. to my XP it is more frequent, yes |
| 11:40:00 | drrho | But I could live with that change. |
| 11:40:03 | drrho | XP? |
| 11:40:15 | lheuer | experience, not the OS ;) |
| 11:40:18 | drrho | Xanthippe? |
| 11:40:20 | drrho | Ah. |
| 11:40:41 | drrho | Hmmm, interesting. Will think about it. |
| 11:40:57 | drrho | Have to go now. Maybe check back tomorrow! |
| 11:41:08 | lheuer | Good night :) |
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