This log is automatically generated by an IRC bot from the traffic on the #topicmaps IRC channel on the irc.freenode.net IRC server. This file has the traffic for 2006-04-28. If you have questions regarding this log, please contact larsga@ontopia.net.
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| 09:54:26 | Xabaras | hello |
| 09:54:37 | Xabaras | anyone up? |
| 09:54:54 | drrho | jo. |
| 09:55:05 | Xabaras | can i ask for a little help |
| 09:55:17 | drrho | you can try. |
| 09:55:36 | Xabaras | i got a problem with cardinality in topic maps, (in particular cardinality withh ontopoly) |
| 09:56:12 | drrho | yes? |
| 09:56:26 | Xabaras | i need to explain a cardinality <=2 but i cannot express this in the association of the topic maps....for example for say a child got at max 2 parents |
| 09:56:47 | Xabaras | how can i explain that in topicmaps? |
| 09:57:07 | drrho | Topic Maps are for 'factual' data, not ontological modelling. |
| 09:57:30 | drrho | There is NO way in Topic Maps to (meaningfully) say "a child got at most 2 parents". |
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| 09:57:50 | drrho | This is the task of a 'constraint' (ontology) language. |
| 09:57:59 | Xabaras | thank i am new to topic maps |
| 09:58:11 | drrho | That is TMCL, but NOT Topic Maps itself. |
| 09:58:55 | Xabaras | oh thank i was thinking about this |
| 09:59:31 | Xabaras | problem i am doing a thesis and my professor asked me to realize a project in protege 3.1 and convert it in topic maps |
| 09:59:48 | drrho | Ah, professors... :-) |
| 09:59:55 | drrho | * drrho is professor here. |
| 10:00:12 | Xabaras | so my problem was about cardinality and union or intersection operator |
| 10:00:20 | Xabaras | hi prof :) |
| 10:00:54 | drrho | Yes, and Protege cardinalities and set building is NOT part of Topic Maps (the core). |
| 10:01:07 | Xabaras | i was using ontopoly ....i managed to explain the 0 M cardinality or 1:1 but not the rest |
| 10:01:10 | drrho | It will be part (mostly) of TMCL, as I said. |
| 10:01:28 | Xabaras | yes i was looking now on the site |
| 10:01:58 | drrho | Tell your professor that TMs = RDF(S), roughly. |
| 10:04:02 | Xabaras | do you know about ontopia and ontopoly? |
| 10:08:58 | drrho | I know a bit Ontopia's stuff. Not used Ontopoly. |
| 10:10:32 | Xabaras | i was looking to TMCL but is a working progress right? |
| 10:10:54 | drrho | It is work in progress, yes. |
| 10:11:10 | drrho | But you may want to look at Ontopia's OSL. |
| 10:11:34 | drrho | It is a 'schema language', so it might be able to express some of the ontological constraints you need. |
| 10:12:24 | Xabaras | thank a lot for your help |
| 10:12:39 | drrho | no worries. |
| 10:15:06 | Xabaras | can i ask just 1 more question? how you will define the power of the topic maps and what are its "constraints" at moment? |
| 10:16:02 | drrho | As I said before, the expressiveness levels with RDF(S). Although I think TMs are more 'dense', so more amenable to human consumption. |
| 10:16:56 | drrho | Ontology definition is built ON TOP of TMs. You can use TMCL for it. But also OWL or even Cycs, if you want to. Just a matter of technology. |
| 10:18:07 | drrho | Expressiveness = power. Power = danger. danger = computability. |
| 10:18:31 | Xabaras | i was studyng owl , in italy this argument is not really known... i am trying to build the knowledge by my self because there are no curse for this argument |
| 10:19:00 | Xabaras | yes like the difference beetwen owl lite and owl full... ;) |
| 10:19:13 | drrho | Really? There are a few quite prominent Italians involved in developing all this. |
| 10:19:30 | drrho | * drrho googling |
| 10:19:31 | Xabaras | yes but not as course for student :) |
| 10:20:21 | Xabaras | well at least in my university....and for what i know lol....maybe as say my girlfriend i am not so good at research :) |
| 10:20:52 | drrho | I see here University of Bologna doing serious TM stuff. |
| 10:21:17 | Xabaras | can i ask who is in charge? |
| 10:21:22 | Xabaras | on this project? |
| 10:21:33 | drrho | * drrho trying to find address. |
| 10:22:43 | drrho | Here is a URL, maybe can find something/someone: http://tesi.fabio.web.cs.unibo.it/RDFTM/ |
| 10:23:34 | drrho | Fabio Vitali, for instance. |
| 10:25:16 | Xabaras | thank a lot i will try to call him |
| 10:27:30 | Xabaras | well i am from university of bologne :) |
| 10:27:38 | Xabaras | but i am an engeener |
| 10:27:44 | drrho | ah :-) |
| 10:27:46 | Xabaras | and did not that |
| 10:28:07 | Xabaras | did not know that |
| 10:28:21 | drrho | tja, the world IS small. |
| 10:29:03 | Xabaras | ehheheh not for the blind :) |
| 10:29:26 | drrho | We are all blind in some respect. |
| 10:30:02 | Xabaras | yes that is why i am trying to know as much as i can :) to see a bit light |
| 10:30:22 | Xabaras | i need to go afk for 2 hour sorry thx for all the help you give it to me |
| 10:30:28 | drrho | CU. |
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| 12:19:21 | Xabaras | hello i am back :) |
| 12:51:56 | Xabaras | sorry anyone know if there is a tool for create schemas with ontopoly .... i mean to create a OSL from a topic maps defined with onpoly |
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| 13:11:03 | Xabaras | hello anyone up? |
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| 13:31:52 | lheuer | Hi there! :) |
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| 13:36:11 | Xabaras | hello |
| 13:36:35 | Xabaras | can i ask again a question? :) |
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| 13:48:49 | lheuer | Sorry, I've to run. |
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| 13:49:57 | lheuer|away | Xabaras: grove and opland are Ontopians, maybe you can ask them reg. the Ontopoly problems |
| 13:50:03 | lheuer|away | bbl |
| 14:18:45 | Xabaras | yes but i cannot send tell i am not able to |
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| 14:42:55 | larsbot | hi there lheuer |
| 14:50:08 | opland | Xabby77: you asked some 10 minutes ago in a private conversation, if you could ask a question. Are you still watching the conversation you started? What's the question? |
| 14:52:10 | Xabby77 | yes i am still watching |
| 14:55:32 | Xabby77 | i need to rebuild a ontoligies created with protege 3.1 about the pubblic administration with the topic maps. The problem is that i used ontopoly to create the topic map but i cannot manage to expresse the constraint of cardinality in the association (like the child have at max 2 parents). Chefpogo say to me that TM are not able to express this cardinality and i need to look at TMCL or use the OSL but i am still confusing |
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| 14:57:35 | chefpogo | I didn't say that. I said it could. But I was wrong. :) |
| 14:57:45 | chefpogo | I should just keep my mouth shut. |
| 14:58:18 | Xabby77 | ooops maybe is just my english that is not so good |
| 14:58:23 | Xabby77 | :) |
| 14:58:28 | Xabby77 | sorry /apologize |
| 14:59:59 | opland | Xabby77: I'm glad you managed to figure this out. |
| 15:00:16 | Xabby77 | well i looked and for what i saw is right .... this kind of cardinality can be expressed just with the TMCL or using a schema for topic map. but is not so easy to understand how or if is still possible |
| 15:02:57 | larsbot | it's possible with OSL, and also with AsTMa= |
| 15:03:02 | larsbot | eh, I meant AsTMa! |
| 15:05:41 | opland | Xabby77: I don't know so much about OSL, but this tutorial may get you started: http://www.ontopia.net/omnigator/docs/schema/tutorial.html |
| 15:06:23 | Xabby77 | yes i read it but problem is the tutorial and free trial does not support the OSL |
| 15:07:01 | Xabby77 | thank a lot opland and larsbot |
| 15:07:20 | larsbot | the free trial does support OSL! |
| 15:07:40 | larsbot | it's the validate link in Omnigator (not Ontopoly) |
| 15:08:05 | Xabby77 | i check got it on this pc |
| 15:08:17 | chefpogo | if they could have just used real names for their products and not silly stuff like that. |
| 15:08:20 | chefpogo | :) |
| 15:08:46 | chefpogo | I keep tripping on these names when I use them with colleagues...ontopopoligator |
| 15:09:33 | larsbot | yeah, "ontopoly" has a tendency to trip people up somehow :) |
| 15:09:47 | Xabby77 | ehehe |
| 15:12:51 | Xabby77 | on omnigator right? |
| 15:13:40 | larsbot | the OSL validator is in Omnigator, yes |
| 15:14:09 | chefpogo | people are looking at the company title, ontopica, trying to pronounce ontopoly and tripping on omnigator. |
| 15:14:54 | Xabby77 | oh is a plug.in |
| 15:16:11 | larsbot | chefpogo: ontopia, please :) |
| 15:16:15 | larsbot | Xabby77: yes |
| 15:17:52 | chefpogo | see? :) |
| 15:18:09 | chefpogo | i even have a nice red t-shirt with it on, and I still can't remember. |
| 15:18:39 | larsbot | you clearly need a mirror :) |
| 15:20:40 | chefpogo | you're hired by...lets see...aipotno? |
| 15:20:45 | chefpogo | :) |
| 15:22:43 | Xabby77 | i /cry cannot find in omnigator |
| 15:23:34 | Xabby77 | i just saw the omnigator says no schema for my topic maps |
| 15:23:50 | larsbot | if you mouse over "no schema" it will tell you where it expects the OSL file |
| 15:28:11 | Xabby77 | oh ok maybe i misunderstood it support the osl file but i need to build it my self i cannot creat with plugin |
| 15:28:52 | larsbot | that's correct |
| 15:29:03 | larsbot | you can use the export plug-in to get a rough skeleton to work from, though |
| 15:30:06 | Xabby77 | mmm i take the skeleton from another topics map. then i adapt it to my schema |
| 15:30:09 | Xabby77 | is right? |
| 15:30:33 | grove | grove has quit None (Remote closed the connection) |
| 15:31:06 | larsbot | you could do that, too |
| 15:31:18 | larsbot | but if you have your topic map in omnigator you can do it directly from your own TM |
| 15:31:27 | larsbot | the exporter will generate a schema automatically |
| 15:32:38 | Xabby77 | yes did it |
| 15:32:58 | Xabby77 | got the file *.xtm.osl |
| 15:33:05 | larsbot | there you are |
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| 16:19:40 | Xabby77 | ok the only thing i can do i think is to change manually the .osl file |
| 16:20:58 | larsbot | yes, correct |
| 16:21:10 | Xabby77 | can i do an example? |
| 16:22:33 | Xabby77 | <association> |
| 16:22:33 | Xabby77 | <instanceOf> |
| 16:22:33 | Xabby77 | <internalTopicRef href="#TMAT_Used"/> |
| 16:22:33 | Xabby77 | </instanceOf> |
| 16:22:33 | Xabby77 | <role min="1" max="1"> |
| 16:23:08 | larsbot | ah |
| 16:23:13 | larsbot | I think I know what you are going to ask |
| 16:23:20 | larsbot | this part constraints the number of roles inside the associations |
| 16:23:26 | larsbot | not the number of roles the topic can play |
| 16:23:41 | larsbot | you want to look at <topic> and <player> (or something like <player>) |
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| 16:24:30 | Xabby77 | well for the moment is not the a problem limit the roles |
| 16:25:24 | larsbot | what do you want to do? |
| 16:27:17 | Xabby77 | well i need to study the situation now. limit the role is not a problem is just introduce the tag <role min max> for the various association int he file created by ontopoly this is not present so i need to introduce manually in the .osl file and hope the validation still work :) |
| 16:28:57 | larsbot | that sounds right |
| 16:29:21 | Xabby77 | just 1 thing |
| 16:29:33 | Xabby77 | not clear |
| 16:30:20 | Xabby77 | <association> |
| 16:30:20 | Xabby77 | <instanceOf subclasses="yes"> |
| 16:30:20 | Xabby77 | <subjectIndicatorRef href="http://psi.ontopia.net/ontology/has-role"></subjectIndicatorRef> |
| 16:30:20 | Xabby77 | </instanceOf> |
| 16:30:20 | Xabby77 | <role> |
| 16:30:20 | Xabby77 | <instanceOf subclasses="yes"> |
| 16:30:22 | Xabby77 | <subjectIndicatorRef href="http://psi.ontopia.net/ontology/role-type"></subjectIndicatorRef> |
| 16:30:24 | Xabby77 | </instanceOf> |
| 16:30:26 | Xabby77 | <player subclasses="yes"> |
| 16:30:28 | Xabby77 | <subjectIndicatorRef href="http://psi.ontopia.net/ontology/role-type"></subjectIndicatorRef> |
| 16:30:30 | Xabby77 | </player> |
| 16:30:32 | Xabby77 | arghh sorry |
| 16:33:55 | Xabby77 | a modifie <role> in <role min max > but this can create problem with the definition in the href ? |
| 16:34:21 | larsbot | not sure what you mean |
| 16:34:26 | larsbot | the min/max doesn't affect the href |
| 16:35:57 | Xabby77 | the assocciation role is defined in the http://psi.ontopia.net/ontology/role-type ....maybe if i change the tag <role> in the tag <role min max| i will have problem of compatibility |
| 16:36:37 | larsbot | I'm still clueless, I'm afraid :-) |
| 16:36:51 | Xabby77 | ehehe hard to explain >( |
| 16:36:58 | Xabby77 | i will try and see |
| 16:37:06 | Xabby77 | will be back in 5 or 6 hour |
| 16:37:28 | larsbot | okay. I won't be here then |
| 16:37:30 | larsbot | good luck, though |
| 16:37:38 | Xabby77 | thx for help |
| 16:37:45 | Xabby77 | was really important |
| 16:37:49 | larsbot | note that you might find it easier to use the ontopoly exporter and get a TM that doesn't have the Ontopoly meta-schema in it |
| 16:38:01 | larsbot | you can then load that lighter TM into Omnigator and make an OSL for it |
| 16:38:29 | Xabby77 | interesting....can you expain a bit better |
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| 16:41:44 | larsbot | the role-type topic that you see in the OSL fragment above is a topic type defined by Ontopoly |
| 16:41:55 | larsbot | when you create a new role type topic in Ontopoly it becomes an instance of that type |
| 16:42:00 | larsbot | which, if you like, is a meta-type |
| 16:42:11 | larsbot | Ontopoly uses this to keep track of your schema within your topic map |
| 16:42:31 | larsbot | however, you probably don't really care about this topic type, and all the other machinery Ontopoly uses at this meta-level |
| 16:42:39 | larsbot | (you can see all this extra stuff in Omnigator, btw) |
| 16:42:56 | larsbot | so to make it easier for you to make an OSL schema, one solution is to get rid of all this |
| 16:43:01 | larsbot | and only make a schema for your own ontology |
| 16:43:07 | larsbot | that's what I gave you the recipe for doing |
| 16:45:04 | Xabby77 | yes i saw it |
| 16:45:25 | Xabby77 | but i can do it always on ontopoly or need to use another tool_ |
| 16:53:35 | larsbot | well, the export plug-in in Ontopoly lets you get rid of this when you export |
| 16:53:51 | larsbot | anyway, now I'm off for the weekend |
| 16:53:53 | larsbot | good luck! :) |
| 16:57:40 | Xabby77 | thx cu tuesday >( |
| 16:57:52 | Xabby77 | ) |
| 17:09:48 | larsbot | cu :) |
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