This log is automatically generated by an IRC bot from the traffic on the #topicmaps IRC channel on the irc.freenode.net IRC server. This file has the traffic for 2004-03-24. If you have questions regarding this log, please contact larsga@ontopia.net.
| 00:48:50 | grove | grove has quit None (Remote closed the connection) |
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| 09:02:51 | larsbot | larsbot has joined #topicmaps |
| 09:08:25 | larsbot | tmbot: url: http://www.ontopia.net/topicmaps/materials/tm-vs-thesauri.html |
| 09:08:38 | larsbot | tmbot: title: Metadata? Thesauri? Taxonomies? Topic maps! |
| 09:09:08 | larsbot | tmbot: comment: larsbot's paper for XML Europe 2004, about how topic maps compare to traditional information retrieval aids like metadata, taxonomies, and thesauri |
| 10:34:55 | arnarl | morning |
| 10:35:48 | larsbot | morning! |
| 11:33:59 | drrho | drrho has joined #topicmaps |
| 11:34:34 | larsbot | hi there, drrho |
| 11:36:55 | drrho | hi lars! |
| 11:37:45 | drrho | * drrho preparing again slides...:-| |
| 11:38:09 | larsbot | not much fun, is it? :-) |
| 11:38:15 | drrho | No. |
| 11:38:16 | larsbot | * larsbot has to finish Extreme tutorial slides soon, too |
| 11:38:24 | larsbot | plus 1000 words describing tutorial :-( |
| 11:57:32 | larsbot | drrho: will you be in Amsterdam from the 14th? (sorry if Steve's already asked) |
| 11:59:34 | larsbot | * larsbot -> squash |
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| 14:05:00 | tonus | %GabeW |
| 14:05:04 | tonus | %arnarl |
| 14:06:04 | larsbot | hi there |
| 14:06:33 | tonus | hi larsbot |
| 14:07:18 | larsbot | I don't think I |
| 14:07:23 | larsbot | 've seen you before. are you new? |
| 14:07:59 | tonus | not just new to this but totally new to irc, and just wandered in by accident |
| 14:09:32 | tonus | i'm killing time before going to a conference where i may be supposed to know something about using the internet for conferencing |
| 14:10:09 | tonus | so i thought i'd better see what sort of irc clients i have access to, and just launched konversation |
| 14:15:36 | tonus | tonus has left #topicmaps ("Konversation terminated!") |
| 14:16:46 | lischke | lischke has joined #topicmaps |
| 14:16:50 | lischke | hi |
| 14:17:19 | lischke | lars: what you think about my TMQL proposal with XPath and XQuery shortcuts? |
| 14:18:07 | lischke | nobody answer except steve p. |
| 14:19:34 | larsbot | * larsbot in meeting, sorry |
| 14:19:47 | lischke | till then and much fun |
| 14:20:16 | larsbot | I'll try to get back to you as soon as possible |
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| 16:11:49 | lischke | lischke has joined #topicmaps |
| 16:15:55 | lischke | hi |
| 16:17:25 | lischke | lars: you have some minutes telling me what you think about my TMQL prop. ? |
| 16:30:13 | larsbot | hi lischke |
| 16:30:27 | larsbot | hang on. I'll take 30 secs to actually read it first :) |
| 16:31:52 | lischke | :-) |
| 16:33:00 | larsbot | ok. what you are proposing is what Jonathan Robie did in his "The Syntactic Web" paper |
| 16:33:12 | larsbot | see http://www.idealliance.org/papers/xml2001/papers/html/03-01-04.html |
| 16:33:49 | lischke | does he also use Xpath and XQuery shortcuts |
| 16:33:52 | larsbot | yep |
| 16:34:02 | lischke | which can be expanded to real XPath and XQuery? |
| 16:34:18 | larsbot | it's XQuery functions |
| 16:35:00 | lischke | with XPath its a little more complicated |
| 16:35:17 | larsbot | XPath isn't powerful enough to do this |
| 16:35:31 | larsbot | we've really considered this path quite a while ago and decided against it |
| 16:35:41 | lischke | why |
| 16:35:48 | larsbot | if you really want to convince people, what you should do is implement the TMQL use cases using this approach |
| 16:36:11 | larsbot | see http://www.isotopicmaps.org/tmql/uc-solutions.html |
| 16:36:37 | larsbot | my feeling is that doing a complex topic map query with XQuery, even with convenience functions, is just going to be too painful |
| 16:37:09 | larsbot | from the point of view of the applications I've actually done, 5.2.2.18 is a really simple query |
| 16:37:15 | larsbot | http://www.isotopicmaps.org/tmql/uc-solutions.html#q522.18 |
| 16:38:03 | larsbot | once you really have to do the full thing of traversing 7-8 associations recursively while tracking two different trees etc things get really hard |
| 16:38:15 | larsbot | XQuery is well suited for XML, but it's not as well suited for a graph model |
| 16:38:27 | larsbot | RDF is not using XQuery, for precisely the same reasons |
| 16:38:42 | larsbot | even drrho, who loves XQuery, did a QL inspired by XQuery, instead of the approach you advocate |
| 16:38:56 | larsbot | even Jonathan Robie was grumbling that his approach was too hard :-) |
| 16:39:06 | lischke | ok...... just an idea |
| 16:39:21 | lischke | did someone implement it? |
| 16:39:58 | larsbot | Jonathan Robie actually did what his paper describes |
| 16:40:04 | larsbot | he worked with real data and wrote real queris |
| 16:40:20 | larsbot | I also know that Software AG built a kind of Omnigator on top of Tamino, using XQuery |
| 16:40:49 | larsbot | however, one thing you should consider is whether you can take a different approach |
| 16:40:53 | larsbot | take TMQL and compile it to XQuery |
| 16:41:25 | larsbot | the user can write nice queries, and you can implement them without having to build an efficient query processor on top of a persistent backend you can't look inside |
| 16:41:34 | larsbot | we do the same with tolog in the sense that we compile it to SQL |
| 16:41:50 | larsbot | the important thing is to give the user something that's easy to work with |
| 16:42:08 | lischke | ok im convinced |
| 16:42:32 | lischke | when there will be a TMQL i think i could write the fastest query engine ontop of xtm4xmldb :-) |
| 16:42:45 | larsbot | that's a challenge I'll happily accept :-) |
| 16:42:51 | larsbot | in fact, any experiments you could do in this direction, especially based on the TMQL use cases would be very interesting |
| 16:42:55 | larsbot | and they would definitely be looked at |
| 16:43:11 | lischke | i didnt read all use cases, but whats with updating? |
| 16:43:19 | larsbot | we're not doing that yet |
| 16:43:21 | lischke | is there an update usecase |
| 16:43:24 | larsbot | not yet |
| 16:43:26 | lischke | thats really importand |
| 16:43:38 | larsbot | it definitely is, but for now everybody's on their own, basically |
| 16:43:47 | larsbot | nobody's done a QL for TMs with update capability yet |
| 16:44:06 | larsbot | we are going to add it to tolog, and I expect we'll learn stuff from that that will eventually go into TMQL (whether it's based on tolog or not) |
| 16:44:21 | lischke | than i should propose this, cause XQuery in eXist is able to update |
| 16:44:22 | larsbot | experimentation in this direction would definitely be valuable |
| 16:45:23 | lischke | steve has invited me to come to amsterdam, you think thats a good idea? |
| 16:46:55 | lischke | how many ppl will be there? |
| 16:47:08 | larsbot | I'm not sure how many there will be |
| 16:47:26 | larsbot | * larsbot counts in head |
| 16:47:32 | larsbot | anywhere between 10 and 20, I guess |
| 16:48:16 | lischke | oh its a great honor to be invited...... i'm not sure i have to think about it |
| 16:48:38 | larsbot | we're going to work on TMQL and TMCL for three days, and the existing ISO 13250 for two days |
| 16:49:00 | larsbot | this is probably where the direction on TMQL and TMCL will be decided, so this is a crucial meeting |
| 16:49:12 | larsbot | and probably having been there is going to give you a much clearer picture of what's happening |
| 16:49:33 | lischke | is it also possible just hear what others say? |
| 16:49:37 | larsbot | oh yes |
| 16:49:42 | larsbot | you don't have to say anything |
| 16:49:50 | lischke | but maybe i want :-) |
| 16:49:51 | larsbot | in fact, you'll probably have to struggle a bit in order to get a word in :-) |
| 16:50:08 | larsbot | you will be able to, but it may require a little effort :) |
| 16:50:11 | larsbot | it's pretty informal |
| 16:50:16 | lischke | when is deadline to say i will come? |
| 16:50:25 | larsbot | you don't have to say anything before it starts |
| 16:50:33 | larsbot | if you show up that's great, and if not then, well, you don't :) |
| 16:50:43 | larsbot | it would be useful to know, but it's not necessary |
| 16:51:00 | lischke | maybe its a good idea, we could drink one or two beers :-) |
| 16:51:25 | larsbot | yep. there would be that, too :) |
| 16:51:33 | larsbot | I certainly would be glad to get a chance to meet you |
| 16:51:37 | larsbot | and amsterdam is a great place for beer |
| 16:51:53 | lischke | ok thanx for answering my TMQL question, lets get back to work |
| 16:51:56 | lischke | :-) |
| 16:52:08 | larsbot | no problem |
| 16:52:11 | larsbot | see you around :) |
| 17:00:57 | eleusis | aloha |
| 17:01:18 | eleusis | lischke dude, i'm not happy with the hypergraph source code >:| |
| 17:01:50 | eleusis | the directory structure's a mess and the build.xml file doesn't make sense >_< |
| 17:13:08 | larsbot | * larsbot has to go |
| 17:13:11 | larsbot | see you all tomorrow! |
| 17:13:14 | larsbot | larsbot has quit None ("Leaving") |
| 17:19:37 | lischke | u have to use a programming environment like netbeans |
| 17:19:53 | lischke | *its not my code :-)* |
| 17:20:27 | eleusis | i know |
| 17:20:50 | eleusis | but the build file doesn't make sense.. why the hell does it need to update from cvs every time it builds? |
| 17:21:12 | eleusis | i was stuck with that problem last night, especially as the adsl connection died for half an hour |
| 17:32:10 | grove | grove has quit None (Remote closed the connection) |
| 17:32:23 | lischke | i dont use the build.xml, cause its not mine :( |
| 17:32:30 | eleusis | heh |
| 17:32:31 | eleusis | well |
| 17:32:37 | eleusis | i did manage to get stuff to build |
| 17:32:43 | lischke | with netbeans? |
| 17:32:46 | eleusis | but then i had no idea how to use whatever was built |
| 17:32:55 | eleusis | narh, with the build file |
| 17:33:12 | lischke | sory i cannot help you with that, i just use it with netbeans |
| 17:33:13 | eleusis | btw, i've dropped my TM editor shell idea for now :P |
| 17:33:22 | lischke | why? |
| 17:33:27 | eleusis | i've installed jython... python within java :D |
| 17:33:51 | eleusis | jython allows me to have an interactive shell where i can import and interact with java classes :) |
| 17:34:09 | eleusis | "from org.tmap import *" |
| 17:34:10 | eleusis | :D |
| 17:34:12 | eleusis | err |
| 17:34:17 | eleusis | org.tmapi |
| 17:43:20 | larsbot | larsbot has joined #topicmaps |
| 17:44:52 | eleusis | wb lars |
| 17:45:06 | larsbot | re :) |
| 17:46:02 | lischke | eleusis : import org.tmapi.core.* |
| 17:46:19 | eleusis | hmm |
| 17:46:31 | lischke | or does it recursive import? |
| 17:46:47 | eleusis | >>> from org.tmapi.core import * |
| 17:46:48 | eleusis | >>> |
| 17:46:51 | eleusis | that worked.. |
| 17:46:54 | eleusis | erm.. i dunno |
| 17:46:58 | eleusis | maybe :P |
| 17:47:36 | larsbot | try writing "locals()" |
| 17:47:43 | eleusis | k |
| 17:47:44 | larsbot | that will show you what variables you now have |
| 17:47:56 | eleusis | >>> locals |
| 17:47:56 | eleusis | <java function locals at 30195191> |
| 17:48:03 | eleusis | whoa |
| 17:48:10 | eleusis | way too much to paste |
| 17:48:13 | eleusis | btw |
| 17:48:32 | eleusis | how'd you know about this locals() thing, lars.. i wanted to know how to do that, earlier :D |
| 17:48:50 | larsbot | have worked with Python for ~7 years :-) |
| 17:48:59 | eleusis | hahah, no kidding |
| 17:49:02 | larsbot | it's in the modules documentation, in the builtin functions section |
| 17:49:03 | eleusis | excellent |
| 17:49:12 | eleusis | * eleusis bookmarks lars as python guru |
| 17:49:15 | eleusis | ;) |
| 17:49:21 | larsbot | nah, not any more |
| 17:49:30 | larsbot | haven't followed the 2.1/2.2/2.3/2.4 stuff closely enough |
| 17:49:31 | eleusis | aww |
| 17:49:37 | larsbot | I'm a python 1.5.2 guru :-) |
| 17:49:40 | eleusis | ok |
| 17:49:46 | eleusis | * eleusis re-bookmarks as python old-timer |
| 17:49:49 | eleusis | :] |
| 17:49:53 | larsbot | * larsbot now happy |
| 17:50:00 | larsbot | [larsbot : python-old-timer] |
| 17:50:05 | eleusis | lol |
| 18:36:00 | larsbot | * larsbot got to run, this time for real |
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