This log is automatically generated by an IRC bot from the traffic on the #topicmaps IRC channel on the irc.freenode.net IRC server. This file has the traffic for 2003-11-27. If you have questions regarding this log, please contact larsga@ontopia.net.
| 10:14:57 | grove_ | grove_ has joined #topicmaps |
| 10:22:27 | arnarl | arnarl has joined #topicmaps |
| 10:22:29 | arnarl | morning |
| 10:29:35 | larsbot | larsbot has joined #topicmaps |
| 10:31:38 | larsbot | hi arnarl |
| 10:39:00 | grove_ | grove_ has quit None (Remote closed the connection) |
| 10:40:26 | larsbot | tmbot: url: http://www.tm4j.org/tm4web.html |
| 10:40:37 | larsbot | tmbot: title: TM4Web/Velocity |
| 10:41:35 | larsbot | tmbot: comment: The TM4J project has released version 0.1 of the TM4Web tool, which is a web publishing tool based on TM4J and the Velocity macro language. Also includes XSLT stylesheets for XTM. |
| 10:53:45 | larsbot | * larsbot -> squash |
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| 15:56:08 | arnarl | are there any restrictions on what namespaces can be added to an xtm document? |
| 16:07:27 | lischke | lischke has joined #topicmaps |
| 16:07:31 | lischke | hoi polloi |
| 16:07:48 | lischke | how was the presentation lars? |
| 16:07:48 | larsbot | hi there lischke |
| 16:07:55 | larsbot | it went ok, I thought |
| 16:08:06 | larsbot | arnarl: no, but you can't have foreign markup inside the XTM |
| 16:09:05 | berva | berva has joined #topicmaps |
| 16:09:12 | larsbot | well, in XTM 1.1 you'll be able to, but not in 1.0 |
| 16:09:13 | lischke | arnarl: in the first time i had problems with foreign markup too.... sometimes i think its a good decision sometimes i think it is bad |
| 16:09:14 | larsbot | hi there, berva |
| 16:09:17 | larsbot | long time, no see |
| 16:09:25 | berva | hi all |
| 16:09:46 | berva | strange I just wanted to speak about foreign markup ... |
| 16:10:12 | lischke | arnarl: there is a trick proposed by murray altheim, its it not alowed to insert foreign markup but its aloud to have xtm inside foreign markup |
| 16:10:36 | arnarl | larsbot: basically I (may) want to add some attributes in a certain namespace to XTM elements |
| 16:10:38 | lischke | arnarl: so just put the data around <topicMap> and refer per xpointer to that from resourceRef |
| 16:11:03 | larsbot | arnarl: that's not allowed. any XTM tool that does validation will be unhappy about that |
| 16:11:21 | arnarl | <instanceOf xlink:href="" discovery:findmeat="http://iamhere.com" /> |
| 16:11:27 | arnarl | I see |
| 16:12:16 | larsbot | why would you want to do that anyway? |
| 16:13:28 | arnarl | Just a (not well though through) idea about fragment-interchange |
| 16:14:30 | arnarl | thought |
| 16:15:14 | larsbot | berva: what was it you wanted to talk about? |
| 16:15:52 | berva | about referencing to a topic defined by a psi inside an occurrence |
| 16:16:50 | berva | For example to express a document-index relationship |
| 16:17:11 | larsbot | can you give an example of such an occurrence? |
| 16:17:17 | berva | without overloading the subject index with thousands of roles in as many associations |
| 16:17:19 | larsbot | I mean: show me a snippet of one |
| 16:17:57 | berva | <resourceData> |
| 16:17:57 | berva | <title>foo</title> |
| 16:17:58 | berva | <url>http://www.example.org/#foo</url> |
| 16:17:58 | berva | </resourceData> |
| 16:18:26 | berva | or something like that |
| 16:18:43 | larsbot | and this URI is the PSI of a topic? |
| 16:18:49 | berva | yes |
| 16:19:12 | berva | souns weird I know |
| 16:19:12 | larsbot | seems fine to me |
| 16:19:17 | larsbot | hehe :-) |
| 16:19:30 | larsbot | it's a bit weird, but, well, that doesn't really matter |
| 16:19:31 | berva | weird but effective I mean |
| 16:19:49 | lischke | but its not possible in xtm 1.0 ? |
| 16:19:54 | larsbot | nope |
| 16:19:58 | berva | I wondered if it would be conformant to XTM 1.1 |
| 16:20:03 | larsbot | yes, it would be |
| 16:20:07 | berva | cool |
| 16:20:13 | larsbot | though you'd have to do something like this: |
| 16:20:29 | larsbot | <resourceData xmlns:ext="http://www.mondeca.com/whatever"> |
| 16:20:31 | lischke | holy shit, oks will have some problems to solve when supporting xtm1.1 |
| 16:20:33 | larsbot | <ext:title>... |
| 16:20:56 | larsbot | because otherwise <title> and <url> will be in the XTM namespace, which isn't allowed |
| 16:21:05 | berva | local namespaces only? |
| 16:21:10 | lischke | lars: thats only be possible by a topicmap engine with a xmldb backend |
| 16:21:32 | larsbot | berva, only non-XTM namespaces, basically |
| 16:21:48 | larsbot | lischke: not really. you can store XML without an XML DB. it is text, after all |
| 16:22:06 | berva | larsbot: yes, we've already agreed on that |
| 16:22:22 | lischke | lars: but thats inefficient, you can not query via xpath in that string in a "normal" db |
| 16:22:57 | lischke | * lischke sees golden times for xmt4xmldb :-) |
| 16:23:08 | lischke | xtm4xmldb |
| 16:23:26 | berva | lars: the extra namespaces can be declared once for all the XTM document, right? |
| 16:23:42 | larsbot | berva: sure. makes no difference where you declare them |
| 16:24:01 | berva | ok - just wanted to make sure |
| 16:24:23 | larsbot | lischke: what you say is true, at least until the advent of SQL/XML, and as long as you're not using Oracle |
| 16:24:50 | berva | another thing - about relax NG |
| 16:25:13 | berva | you wrote somewhere it will be normative in XTM 1.1 |
| 16:25:25 | larsbot | yep |
| 16:25:31 | berva | and DTD only informative? |
| 16:25:35 | larsbot | yep |
| 16:25:46 | berva | It's not like that on current draft |
| 16:25:55 | larsbot | that is correct. it was only agreed in Montreal |
| 16:26:00 | berva | OK |
| 16:26:02 | larsbot | and I haven't finished the post-Montreal draft yet |
| 16:26:13 | lischke | lars: the native xmldb that im using (eXist) is capable of XQuery right now in the cvs version, so there is no need of sql/xml (in my humble opinion) |
| 16:26:16 | berva | How lazy can you get :)) |
| 16:26:24 | larsbot | hehe :) |
| 16:27:13 | berva | Well, that's all for today - I'm off - sorry to be so short |
| 16:27:17 | berva | bye all |
| 16:27:30 | berva | berva has left #topicmaps () |
| 16:28:06 | larsbot | I think there are many legitimate reasons to choose an RDBMS, really |
| 16:28:49 | lischke | for sure, but there are also many reasons to choose native xmldb..... |
| 16:29:27 | larsbot | agreed |
| 16:29:57 | lischke | for example when many different applications are working with the same data, than there is the advantage, that all the data is not in an application specific data... it is in xml, the most common interchange format |
| 16:31:41 | lischke | but i don't want to convince everybody about my addiction to xml db's :-) |
| 16:32:08 | larsbot | * larsbot on phone |
| 17:00:22 | larsbot | XML DBs certainly have their uses |
| 17:00:41 | larsbot | but no customer we've spoken to yet has seemed at all keen on using anything but an RDBMS |
| 17:03:51 | lischke | :-) time will change (i hope so) |
| 17:04:05 | lischke | another question you know whats wrang in this : "Cannot add an addressable subject to topic: MODUL. Topic already plays the class role in a class-instance association." |
| 17:04:34 | lischke | does that mean i cannot have a topic with adressable subject as a type of another topic????? |
| 17:05:47 | lischke | topic is: <topic id="MODUL"> |
| 17:05:47 | lischke | <subjectIdentity> |
| 17:05:47 | lischke | <resourceRef xlink:href="http://www.ivs.tu-berlin.de/xtmcms/psi.xtm#MODUL"/> |
| 17:05:47 | lischke | </subjectIdentity> |
| 17:05:47 | lischke | </topic> |
| 17:06:12 | larsbot | XTM 1.0 does not allow <resourceRef> in <roleSpec>, so that implies that there is such a constraint |
| 17:06:21 | larsbot | TMDM has explicitly lifted that constraint, however |
| 17:06:44 | larsbot | note that the XTM fragment you show means that "MODUL" is a topic element |
| 17:06:56 | larsbot | probably you want it to mean the abstract notion of a module |
| 17:07:04 | lischke | yaeh |
| 17:07:07 | larsbot | if you do you have to use <subjectIndicatorRef>, not <resourceRef> |
| 17:07:24 | larsbot | <resourceRef> in <subjectIdentity> means that the topic represents the thing you point it |
| 17:07:29 | larsbot | point at, I mean |
| 17:07:37 | larsbot | that is, the subject *is* the thing you point to |
| 17:08:33 | lischke | ok i see, but i cannot become it with getSubjectAddress |
| 17:09:33 | lischke | i have to get it with getSubjectIndicators() and thats a f... set :-) |
| 17:09:46 | larsbot | correct :) |
| 17:10:00 | lischke | * lischke has to change design once again .... he loves rapid prototyping :-) |
| 17:10:35 | lischke | is subjectindicator the normal way of referencing to a psi |
| 17:10:41 | larsbot | it's the only way |
| 17:10:47 | larsbot | anything else is wrong |
| 17:11:01 | larsbot | well, if the PSI is a <topic> element you can also use <topicRef> |
| 17:11:25 | lischke | thats not cool, i check against this psi in my algorithm |
| 17:12:28 | lischke | ok ... i'll go to hotten my keys..... till then |
| 17:12:39 | larsbot | :-) |
| 17:18:44 | arnarl | arnarl has quit None (Remote closed the connection) |
| 17:32:09 | lischke | should i use <topicRef> for referencing to the topic modul in psi-xtm (http://www.ivs.tu-berlin.de/xtmcms/psi.xtm#MODUL) |
| 18:29:47 | larsbot | you could, but then the XTM processor will suck in that whole file |
| 19:00:28 | larsbot | that's not going to work so well if you're offline, for example... |
| 19:04:35 | lischke | ok now i have a fresh new prototype of xtmcms working with a now hopefully fully TMAPI compliant xtm4xmldb *puh* |
| 19:06:27 | larsbot | :-) |
| 19:30:33 | lischke | your mail in topicmapmail about 8400 ppl in us is really funny :-) |
| 19:33:04 | larsbot | it's an internal Ontopia joke, really :) |
| 19:33:33 | larsbot | but 34,000 people in China, now *that* would have been impressive :) |
| 19:37:02 | lischke | but they are all so small those chinese :-) |
| 19:40:01 | larsbot | that's true. I guess we'll have to settle for the 8400 big americans :) |
| 19:40:25 | lischke | or 120 ppl from berlin which has 4 mio |
| 19:40:46 | lischke | all those potsmoking and alc drinking berliners :-) |
| 19:40:49 | larsbot | medium-sized berliners? wouldn't be bad |
| 19:41:00 | lischke | or wiener :-) |
| 19:41:05 | larsbot | so long as they buy Ontopia software they can smoke whatever they like :) |
| 19:41:52 | lischke | ok i'm going to have a smoking brake (and football uefa cup) and then i ll by oks 2.0 |
| 19:42:22 | larsbot | oh, cool |
| 19:42:35 | lischke | how much will it be? |
| 19:42:45 | larsbot | depends which edition you want |
| 19:42:51 | lischke | academic |
| 19:42:52 | larsbot | I recommend the Enterprise Ed, USD 3000 |
| 19:42:58 | lischke | :) |
| 19:43:12 | larsbot | same price, but then it's an institute-wide license :) |
| 19:43:34 | lischke | man 3000 usd i could smoke a whole year with that money......... |
| 19:43:51 | larsbot | yeah, but it wouldn't be nearly as fun :) |
| 19:44:33 | lischke | thats right, working with oks interfaces is really funnier than smoking ... |
| 19:45:02 | lischke | but here is the deal, ill buy oks 2.0 if it has tmapi interfaces implemented |
| 19:45:13 | larsbot | are you serious? |
| 19:45:31 | lischke | i have to convince my prof :-) |
| 19:45:53 | larsbot | because if you are I'll bring it up internally, and we might just do it |
| 19:46:51 | lischke | i have to talk to my professor.... my presentation of xtmcms is 17.12.2003 i tell them that xtmcms is working with all tmapi implementations |
| 19:47:20 | lischke | believe me he will ask if there is a "real" working TMAPI impl. out there |
| 19:47:46 | lischke | if i tell him about xtm4xmldb or tm4j he will ask : "is it opensource?" |
| 19:49:38 | lischke | but i think ontopia should wait with a TMAPI impl till we have finished index api (kal told me hundred times, that he will make a proposel about that... but he is to busy right now) |
| 19:49:56 | larsbot | well, the index API is just an add-on anyway |
| 19:50:30 | lischke | but is needed in xtmcms, just working with the core is to unefficient and to slow |
| 19:51:22 | lischke | just now i'm using indexing of my xtm4xmldb, i have a getTopicByXpath(xpath) which is very fast on xmldb |
| 19:59:04 | larsbot | have you considered implementing tolog? |
| 20:09:15 | lischke | it is not part of tmapi and any addon |
| 20:09:33 | larsbot | true |
| 20:09:58 | lischke | so my xtmcms cannot use tolog |
| 20:10:22 | lischke | would an addon api for tmapi make sense for tolog? |
| 20:10:42 | larsbot | it would, except that I guess it might be just as good to wait for TMQL and do a TMQL API instead |
| 20:11:11 | lischke | thats my point to, but i know you are implementing tolog for oks 2 right now :-) |
| 20:11:25 | larsbot | for the simple reason that we need it *now* |
| 20:11:31 | larsbot | we'll do TMQL once it exists... |
| 21:36:52 | lischke | hey lars still working ? |
| 21:37:25 | lischke | was the topic "unmerging of TopicMaps" ever discussed? |
| 21:38:03 | larsbot | it's come up every now and then, yes |
| 21:38:10 | larsbot | it's non-trivial :) |
| 21:38:33 | lischke | for the cms i'm using a merge of data.xtm types.xtm and website.xtm and while working there are associations added........ |
| 21:38:57 | lischke | how can i mark a topic, thats from original tm |
| 21:40:22 | larsbot | one way is to use associations |
| 21:41:51 | lischke | aah i have a solution, im seeing the merge as THE TopicMap, and when i want to unmerge i make a fragment by GFA (demanding all topics with type, or all assocs...) |
| 21:42:25 | lischke | this fragment i can change by an editor and merge it back to THE topicmap |
| 21:42:49 | lischke | unmerging by GFA :-) |
| 21:43:22 | larsbot | what's GFA? |
| 21:43:41 | larsbot | btw, do you know if there are any test cases for TMAPI? |
| 21:45:51 | lischke | u mean junit? |
| 21:46:42 | lischke | you are right, thats needed...... when i have time, i can do some |
| 21:47:03 | larsbot | like junit, yes |
| 21:47:08 | larsbot | we should probably bring it up on the mailing list |
| 21:47:11 | larsbot | so that we can get it into CVS |
| 21:47:33 | larsbot | and we should get Kal to make a TMAPI release |
| 21:50:08 | lischke | how can we get him to ? we could send him some nice beer :-) |
| 21:52:46 | larsbot | just ask him, I suppose :) |
| 23:10:42 | grove_ | grove_ has quit None (Remote closed the connection) |
| 23:33:31 | larsbot | * larsbot -> zzz |
| 23:33:33 | larsbot | good night! |
| 23:35:29 | larsbot | larsbot has quit None ("Leaving") |
| 23:43:21 | lischke | lischke has quit None () |